[00:01:37] – Frankie
Hello. You’re listening to the Doing It For The Kids podcast, where we swear a bit too much, talk a bit too fast about freelance life with kids in the mix. I’m Frankie and this is Steve.

[00:01:48] – Steve
Hello! Yes, each episode, we take a question from the Doing It For The Kids community. Do our best to answer it, but we start each episode by looking back at the last episode.

Last episode we’re talking about-,

[00:01:57] – Frankie
We were talking about what to do when you get invited to loads of meetings by your client and you don’t really want to go to them / don’t think you need to go to them / are they a waste of time?

[00:02:08] – Steve
Harriette Wade-West has been in touch. Hey, Harriet.

Harriette says:

“I work mostly on an hourly rate and it’s written into my contract that meetings/communication time is billable. One benefit of an hourly rate, I guess. It’s also billable time if they book meetings and then don’t turn up or cancel last minute. I don’t always do this in practice as I get that things happen. (Hello, 48-hour nursery exclusion for a child who vomited once and is now bouncing off the walls. Classic!) And I can usually just get on with something else. But it’s nice to know that I can bill for it if I feel like someone is taking the piss.”

[00:02:44] – Frankie
Yes! In the episode, I asked people to tell me if it’s written into their contract. There it is. Clear and simple clarity. I love it.

[00:02:52] – Steve
I do like the, “you didn’t turn up for the meeting…”

[00:02:55] – Frankie
Yeah, right. You’re not going to do that twice, are you?

And Jo Watson says,

“Here are some responses to meetings that I don’t want to go to:

1) I’m sure you’ll agree that given the project you’re paying me for, this wouldn’t be best use of your cash or my time on the clock.

2) Happy to chip in with any thoughts if you want to send me the minutes after the meeting.

3) I know from experience this is something that needs to be sorted on your side, so I don’t want us to waste any time on this. By all means, email me with your thoughts as I’d ask for one of those in the follow-up anyway.”

Very diplomatic, but very clear. I like it.

There were also lots of people saying that they get paid for that time!

[00:03:38] – Steve
Good, good, good.

[00:03:39] – Frankie
“I only come to a meeting if I get paid”. So clearly, I need a bit more of that in my life.

[00:10:21] – Frankie
All right, episode 119. Our question is anonymous. It’ll be obvious why. Here we go.

Anonymous says,

“I’m subcontracting on a project with a fellow freelancer. I like them, and working with them has been great. The project, however, has been anything but. The clients are difficult, their working patterns don’t fit with mine, and their constant changes have added to our workload many times.

My question is: how do I maintain my relationship with the freelancer, with the hope of working with them again, while telling them that I don’t want to do phase two of this project?

I only signed up for phase one, but the client is acting as though phase two is a done deal, so I need to extricate myself without the other freelancer feeling like I’ve left them in the lurch. Help!”

[00:11:07] – Steve
Honesty — best policy.

[00:11:09] – Frankie
Yeah, I’m with you. Be honest, as in — with the other freelancer, or with the client, or both?

[00:11:13] – Steve
No, with the other freelancer. You have been bought in on this with that freelancer. You can say that you appreciate the work. It’s been great to work with them, but the issues with the client are too many and you don’t want to do phase two. And if anything, it feels like their-, and I’m quoting, “Their working patterns don’t fit with mine.” That’s quite a strong one, right? You could be honest about that.

[00:11:40] – Frankie
Yeah. I mean, we’re assuming here that the other freelancer also wants to do phase two, aren’t we?

[00:11:46] – Frankie
Yeah.

[00:11:47] – Frankie
Maybe if you go, “I don’t want to do phase two”, and they go, “Yeah, me neither!”And then you’re going to get out together? But maybe they feel more responsible to the client because they’re the ones that-, you know-,

[00:11:57] – Steve
Got the gig.

[00:11:57] – Frankie
Arranged it, pitched it. Yeah.

[00:11:58] – Steve
Maybe they’re already signed up for phase two, even if you haven’t? Maybe this is leaving them in the lurch.

[00:12:05] – Frankie
Yes, maybe.

But it’s a bit audacious,- Audacious? Of the client to assume that you’re going to do it.

[00:12:12] – Steve
I don’t think it’s audacious.

It might seem obvious. Because maybe to them, there’s not been an issue?

[00:12:18] – Frankie
They think it’s fine, yeah.

[00:12:19] – Steve
“This is great. This is working well. We got the work. They do all the revisions we want. Yeah, surely they’ll be here for phase two!”
[00:12:27] – Frankie
But also, if you’ve been subcontracted — how much interaction are you having with the client?

[00:12:32] – Steve
Sounds like quite a lot!

[00:12:33] – Frankie
Ha! True.

Yes, I agree. Honesty is good. And it feels like, based on what you’ve said, sooner rather than later, because obviously, the later you leave it, the more ‘in the lurch’-able this situation is. But then you have the complicating factor of if they genuinely are a difficult client…

You know, a natural suggestion in this scenario — if the client was a good one — is you might be like, “I can’t do phase two for these reasons, but let me recommend some people that can do that job for you instead”. But obviously, if the client is not ideal, you don’t want to be recommending people you know to a difficult client.

But yeah, I feel like if you talk to the other freelancer, openly, honestly, they’ll probably get it and share some of your frustrations anyway and understand? Maybe? I don’t know.

[00:13:28] – Steve
I mean, it’s possible they will understand and they might feel cheesed off.

[00:13:34] – Frankie
Yes.

[00:13:34] – Steve
Which is not a word I ever use.

[00:13:37] – Frankie
Here it is! We’re rolling with it.

[00:13:39] – Steve
But it’s not your fault.

[00:13:41] – Frankie
No, it’s not your fault. But that doesn’t mean you won’t feel gross about it.

[00:13:44] – Steve
Well, you might feel gross. They might feel annoyed…

[00:13:47] – Frankie
But there’s plenty more freelancers in the sea.

[00:13:49] – Steve
I mean, how long is phase two? How much of an ache is it?

[00:13:53] – Frankie
How much are you getting paid?

[00:13:54] – Steve
Is it doable? Could you see it through?

[00:13:56] – Frankie
I get the impression phase two is not happening for this person.

[00:14:00] – Steve
They really don’t want to do it, do they?

[00:14:01] – Frankie
No.

[00:14:02] – Steve
The other thing is… screw honesty!

[00:14:05] – Frankie
Just lie. Bald face lie!

[00:14:08] – Steve
And say you’re not available to work on phase two because something else has come up and you’ve really got to fly to Austria to-, er… the yodelling opportunity of the year has come available, and-,

[00:14:28] – Frankie
Again, the 101 on how to get out of projects you don’t want to do — offer some other people is one of them. And yeah, say you’re too busy. That you’re not available. But then how well do you know-, like, if you work with this freelancer a lot and you have a really close relationship, I feel like they’re going to know!

[00:14:45] – Steve
That you’re not in Austria?

[00:14:46] – Frankie
Yeah, exactly.

Or you know, whatever you want to say, I feel like they’re going to know that that’s a lie.

[00:14:53] – Steve
Not necessarily. It could be that other stuff has come along with other clients that you really need to work on *right now*.

[00:14:59] – Frankie
But then you’re in that situation where if you don’t have any other clients, you can’t be on LinkedIn going, “Hey, I’m available for work!” Do you know what I mean? You can’t be actively publicly seeking work if you’ve told somebody you’re not available.

[00:15:12] – Steve
Do you see how much harder it is, Anonymous, to lie? Much better to be honest. Especially because you’re not being honest with the client you’re being honest with,-

[00:15:23] – Frankie
Yeah, but that’s part of the problem because it puts the other freelancer in a sticky situation where a) they have to find somebody else, and b) they might have to explain why you’re no longer doing it.

[00:15:34] – Steve
Yeah, but you know — somebody else might not find the client so hard to work with.

[00:15:40] – Frankie
Oh, controversial! But yes.

[00:15:43] – Steve
Somebody else might be grateful of the work and they might not find it that hard? Or they simply make it all the way through phase two and think, “Okay, I’m glad of the money, but boy, am I glad I didn’t have to do phase one! And I’m definitely not doing phase three”.

[00:15:59] – Frankie
But it’s tricky for them… I empathise with you, empathising for them. I see why, you know, especially if you like them and you want to do more work with them — you don’t want to jeopardise future partnerships. It sounds like it’s a good partnership.

[00:16:13] – Steve
You’re giving them the opportunity to go and find other people to work with, and they might well have other people they’d like to work with. You might not be the only person. They’ve chosen to work with you, and it’s been good, but they might know other people who they can approach. So it might not be such a big drama from their point of view.

[00:16:33] – Frankie
True. You might be more worried about it than they actually are in reality? They may go, “Oh, I’ll ask Johnny”, or whatever.

[00:16:39] – Steve
It could be easier than you think to be replaced!

[00:16:44] – Frankie
There is potential good feeling in how you break up… Or not ‘break up’. You know what I mean.

But on this particular project, like — how you manage that process of getting out of phase two. If you’re not going to go “Look, here are some other freelancers who might want to do it”. That’s fine, I understand. But you could be useful and proactive about the handover of any files that you have. Or you could do those little Loom videos where you’re explaining your process. So that anybody that does come after you — you make that transition as smooth as possible. Your freelance mate is going to appreciate that, but also the client is going to appreciate that.

Minimise your guilt by overcompensating with how that transition plays out, I guess. Within reason. I don’t want you doing loads of extra work for no money! But if it means you don’t have to do phase two.

I guess maybe one of your fears is like you’re seen to be unreliable?

[00:17:47] – Steve
It’s weird, isn’t it? The say, “I only signed up for phase one”.

[00:17:51] – Frankie
Yeah.

[00:17:51] – Steve
I mean, maybe there’s something in there where you can tell this person, “Hey, look, I only signed up for phase one, but the client is acting as if I’m here for phase two, but…”

[00:18:02] – Frankie
“…I might have possible other work coming in that I would like to do instead”.

[00:18:07] – Steve
It’s not that unreasonable. The fact is you signed up for phase one.

[00:18:11] – Frankie
Yeah, I mean, what’s the legality there as well? You’re not contractually obliged to do phase two, presumably.

[00:18:16] – Steve
But there’s that moral kind of feeling like, “I’m in it now. I’m going to do phase two”. Yeah, so that way you’re suggesting that this person needs to let the client know that you’re not going to be there for phase two / that acts as a reminder that this person needs to find somebody else for phase two.

[00:18:37] – Frankie
Also, this reminds me of a post on LinkedIn this week that Matthew Knight from Leapers did. It was a poll and he said, “Freelancers, how many times has your client asked you to give feedback on them and their process and how you were treated?” I’m sure you can guess.

What I’m saying is — this client’s clearly getting away with some stuff. Is this also an opportunity not just for you to get out, but for your freelance mate to give feedback?

[00:19:06] – Steve
Yeah, because if nobody ever flags errors, then the tooth fairy just thinks it can get away with anything!

[00:19:14] – Frankie
Exactly.

[00:19:15] – Steve
Okay, we’re done. But we would love your comments. Maybe you’ve been in this situation. Remember, your comments can be anonymous if they need to be. Also, of course, we need some more questions. So if you’ve got a question for a future episode, please do get in touch.