[00:02:37] – Frankie
Hello. You’re listening to the Doing It For The Kids podcast, where we swear a bit too much and talk a bit too fast about freelance life with kids in the mix. I’m Frankie and this is Steve.

[00:02:46] – Steve
Hello! Yes, each episode we take a question from the Doing It For The Kids community, do our best to answer it, but we start each one by looking back at the last one. Last time we were talking about-,

[00:02:56] – Frankie
Sending a quote and then regretting it because it’s too low.

[00:02:59] – Steve
We had lots of comments.

This one’s anonymous. It says,

“I had a situation like this recently. In an in-person meeting where I’d already given too much away, I quoted an hourly rate and instantly regretted it. Got home, thought about it, and decided I was charging far less than my worth.

I emailed them and said, ‘I replied when you asked about my rate with £35 per hour. I have been reflecting on this and doing work on my business and offer etc. And as much as I really don’t like going back on something, I’m going to revise that pricing. I have been undervaluing myself, my skills and experience for some time, and I need to change that. So my rate will be £50 per hour for this kind of work. Again, apologies for changing this.’

They replied with something along the lines of, ‘I thought that was too low, so good for you!’”

[00:03:49] – Frankie
Yes!

[00:03:50] – Steve
Anonymous continues,

“In the end, I did the work. So I would encourage you to go back to them. You may end up meeting in the middle, but still, you won’t regret not having asked.”

Wow. What a story.

[00:04:01] – Frankie
Love it.

Craig Williams says,

“Like Frankie said, it depends on what stage the quote is at. If it’s the initial discussion stage, then I would be okay with going back and saying, ‘On reflection, it will be this.’ But if you sent the formal contract for agreement, I think it’s too late to change.

Also — do your estimates have an expiry on them? An easy get-out would be if they do, and if they don’t give you a definitive answer in that time frame, you could then say, ‘Well, since I’ve sent this quote, the price has changed.’”

It’s a very good point because we didn’t touch on that in the episode. Having a timeframe for it. You know, it could be five days. It doesn’t have to be 30 days or whatever.

[00:04:37] – Steve
Very much worth making that point because it helps them make a decision quicker.

[00:04:41] – Frankie
Yes, true.

[00:04:42] – Steve
But also, sometimes somebody might come back to you six months or a year down the line.

[00:04:47] – Frankie
Right.

[00:04:48] – Steve
Lyndsay Yates said,

“We’ve all done it! I have that feeling nearly every time I send a quote, especially when the client gets back to me with a really quick resounding yes. I’ve never gone back on a quote, but then I’ve not priced anything so grossly under that I felt I couldn’t continue. I think that was an important distinction to make. How bad is it? When I’ve done it in the past, I’ve sucked it up but kept a record of exactly how much time I’ve spent on said project so that next time I can use that record to quote accordingly. I see it as an experience and maybe even a mistake to learn from.”

[00:05:24] – Frankie
Yes!

Good comments folks. Thank you very much.

[00:08:23] – Frankie
Episode 118. Our question is from anonymous.

They say,

“How do you tell clients, ‘I don’t want to attend that bloody meeting?!’

I know meetings are needed (could have been an email, though). But my clients are now adding me to monthly all staff meetings, staff outings etc. I don’t even think all the staff realise that I’m a freelancer.

It just ties up so much of my time, and I also don’t actually care about holidays and Christmas dos etc. I’m self-employed! Help.”

[00:08:55] – Steve
Oh, this is a good question.

[00:08:57] – Frankie
Isn’t it? I feel like I have more to say about meetings than I thought I did.

[00:09:03] – Steve
Well, can we start with a positive?

[00:09:05] – Frankie
Sure. Absolutely.

[00:09:06] – Steve
They clearly really value you.

[00:09:08] – Frankie
Yes.

[00:09:09] – Steve
And feel like you’re part of their company, right?

[00:09:11] – Frankie
That’s a really good point that I had not even considered. Yes. They want you at the Christmas party. Not even that. They’re willing to pay for you to come to the Christmas do. There’s a cost per head associated with these things.

[00:09:23] – Steve
If you’re somebody who will enjoy going to that sort of ‘staff do’, in quotation marks, then actually, it is a really nice way to help you get to know people that you work with. And not all of them will be at that company forever. They’ll go elsewhere and they might remember you, and then they might recommend you. And so on.

[00:09:43] – Frankie
All connections are good connections. And there’s free food!

[00:09:47] – Steve
How do you tell clients, “I don’t want to attend that bloody meeting?” Can I make a suggestion?

[00:09:54] – Frankie
No, absolutely not. Get out.

No, please do…

[00:09:59] – Steve
You could be positive about it, right? You could say, “Thanks for inviting me to these meetings. But since I’m a freelance member of your team here to do X project… It would be much better for me just to be at meetings that I need to be at to do with that project. And then that means the rest of the time I can focus on delivering that.”

[00:10:19] – Frankie
“PS, my time is money and you are wasting my time!”

Seriously, when you have small children and babies, like, no. Why am I sitting in this meeting? I have so little time available to do my job, let alone sit in a meeting that didn’t need to be a meeting, or that I don’t actually need to be at. Respect everybody’s time.

I mean, I feel like that should be across the board anyway — and I know people in employed jobs suffer with this too — but like, can we just make sure that the people that actually need to be in that conversation are the ones invited?

[00:10:51] – Steve
I have, in the past, been in this situation, and it’s played out a couple of ways. One was like… I was working for a company, and then that company was working for a client. I would say to the person at the company I was working for, “Look, I don’t need to be at all these meetings. You go to the meetings and tell me anything I need to.”

[00:11:14] – Frankie
Nice. An intermediary. I like it.

[00:11:17] – Steve
Another one was-, it was a really long, ongoing project. I was like, “Okay, if they really want me in this meeting — because the end client did — I’m charging for that time. How much do you want me in that meeting, basically?” They were like, “Yeah, Okay, fine.” And they paid me. They paid me to go to the meetings.

[00:11:34] – Frankie
But it makes it so clear, doesn’t it? It’s like… You are taking me away from other projects by being in this meeting and therefore asking them to pay is the greatest way to demonstrate that.

Also on that point of having an intermediary, one of my best clients who I love dearly and have been working with forever. One of the things I love about her is that she protects me from this stuff. She’s like, “Nobody else speaks to Frankie except me.” She deals with all the politics, and then I always speak to her. And I really appreciate somebody looking out for me like that. It makes such a difference to my process.

Obviously, that doesn’t work in all scenarios, and sometimes you need to be talking to the wider team. But yeah, love it. Five stars.

[00:12:18] – Steve
You can say that you’re happy to stay up to date. Like, if they want to send you a brief summary of what was said in the meeting — fine. Or you can ask the person to simply keep you up to date on the one element of that meeting which related to you.

[00:12:35] – Frankie
Cut out the 50 minutes of chat about, you know, the summer holidays or whatever.

[00:12:39] – Steve
The inevitable slagging off of films.

[00:12:40] – Frankie
Yes, exactly. Because as much as we all like to be efficient, there is a lot of that, isn’t there? Mainly because you’re waiting for everyone to join. Obviously, everyone doesn’t join at the same time. So then it-, oh, shush. I thought I put you on silent. Ugh, Duolingo.

[00:12:56] – Steve
Tell Duolingo you will check up on all the updates at the end of the week. It doesn’t need to interrupt your day.

[00:13:01] – Frankie
Exactly.

I mean, obviously, there are some freelancers where they have to be in more meetings. If you’re a consultant or whatever, I imagine there is a lot of chat going on. But this screams to me of somebody who’s in a service-based job. Like a designer or a copywriter or something — and they are being endlessly asked to attend meetings they just don’t need to be on. I don’t know because they haven’t told us.

But also, on a positive note — thank f*ck for COVID and the fact that we don’t have to travel as much to go to these meetings. Like pre-covid, it was so the norm for potential clients to expect me to travel to meet them, to talk about a job. And this was when my kids were tiny and I was paying £85 a day for them to be in childcare! And they were asking me go into central London or whatever to have a chat. No, just NO. Like, that’s even more annoying because you don’t even have the job yet.

So yeah, thank God we don’t have to do that as much, even when you do have the job, because the travel time, the energy, the money. It adds up.

[00:14:19] – Steve
So it is possible to rebut it by being friendly, professional?

[00:14:25] – Frankie
Yes. Always.

[00:14:26] – Steve
But just putting that boundary in place. Just saying, “I’m here to work on this project. So unless the meeting is significant to do with that project…”

[00:14:35] – Frankie
But also, even if it is significant to that project, if your role is not about decision making regarding that project — do you need to be there? Is my expertise key to the discussion in this moment? And even if it is, am I getting paid for this level of responsibility in terms of the discussion in this moment? What am I actually being brought in to do? Am I on the organigram?!

You’re looking confused…

[00:15:06] – Steve
Organigram?

[00:15:06] – Frankie
No?

[00:15:07] – Steve
Are we just letting that go, like that’s an okay word? Are we?

[00:15:11] – Frankie
Are you not familiar? Am I saying it wrong?

[00:15:13] – Steve
Organigram?

[00:15:13] – Frankie
Am I saying it wrong?

[00:15:19] – Steve
What is it?

[00:15:21] – Frankie
This is my previous corporate life showing itself… but it’s an organisational chart.

[00:15:26] – Steve
Oh, an org chart?

[00:15:27] – Frankie
Yeah. It’s like the family tree of the organisation, who does what. Yeah, that’s an organigram.

[00:15:32] – Steve
I’ve never heard it called an organigram.

[00:15:34] – Frankie
Okay, well. There you go.

[00:15:35] – Steve
That’s fun to say. I don’t need to be in any meeting where anybody is discussing an organigram.

[00:15:41] – Frankie
But yeah, if I’m a freelancer who is so ingrained in the team that I’m on an organigram, then perhaps being in more meetings is justified. But if I’m being brought in as an external specific skill for a really small part of a wider project, do I need to be privy to the conversations about the wider project? Probably not.

[00:16:03] – Steve
Okay, are we done? Or did you have more to rant on?

[00:16:05] – Frankie
There is more ranting about meetings, but it’s fine. We’ll stop there.

[00:16:09] – Steve
No, if you need to get it out of your system, now’s a good chance.

[00:16:11] – Frankie
No, no. The biggest thing is… particularly when you’re already time poor. Like, in our context of Doing It For The Kids — you’re time poor. And if people are taking the piss with the amount of meetings you need to be on, you need to stop that. Because if you don’t, it’s going to be a resentful situation, which is no good for anybody.

[00:16:33] – Steve
And I remember when my kids were much, much smaller, if I was invited on a meeting, if the kids are at home, that meeting also then becomes a stress point because suddenly I’ve got to keep them occupied or I’m feeling worried that they’re about to leap into view, or I’m not paying attention both to the call or to them. It’s stressful, that situation. And if I didn’t need to be in that meeting in the first place, that’s just really annoying.

[00:17:02] – Frankie
Yeah, we have another episode loosely called When My Clients Work 9 to 5 and I Work 9 to 3 or something. And I’m sure in that one we talked a bit about when you have commitments or they’re expecting you to come to meetings after three o’clock. And yeah, trying to communicate that that’s not okay. So maybe go and listen to that episode in tandem with this episode!

[00:17:23] – Steve
There’s another element here as well, which is legally saying, “I am not a staff member”, which is both good for you as the freelancer and them as the company. Because if it looks like they’re dodgily hiring people when in fact they should be paying them PAYE and all of that stuff, then it’s important that those things aren’t blurred. We’re not going to go down the legal cul-de-sac here. But it’s important that you are not permanently in every single meeting or needing to turn up at a certain time.

[00:17:58] – Frankie
Well, isn’t that one of the criteria of whether you fall under IR35 or not — is them dictating when you work?

[00:18:05] – Steve
So like we said… without going down the legal cul-de-sac! And then we drive into it accidentally anyway. Ha!

[00:18:11] – Frankie
Yes.

But also, as an aside to that, one of the perks of being self-employed is deciding when you work. And so if your schedule is being taken up by all these meetings that you haven’t had any input on when they are — boundaries is key.

You mentioned one already, which is: if you want me to come to this meeting, you need to pay me for it. That’s a very clear boundary. I have a boundary around meetings. Are you going to cross it for me or not? You know? It sets out your approach to that kind of stuff and makes them respect your time.

And then — your contract. Everyone needs a contract. We have an episode on that. Can you have boundaries in there about whether you need to be at meetings or how many meetings a month? I don’t know, however you want to word it. In fact, if anybody has any good clauses specifically about meetings, let us know.

I don’t have that. Maybe I should?

And then things like you’re out of office, the bottom of your email-, what’s it called?

[00:19:06] – Steve
Your signature.

[00:19:07] – Frankie
All that stuff is very useful. It can say, “I’m a freelancer, hello! I work flexibly. I work on these hours, at these times. I may not be able to get back to you on a Friday” or whatever it is. All of that stuff helps, you know, reiterate, clarify, what your position is.

Do some people even know they’re a freelancer? That is something you need to nip in… I don’t know how to say it, the bud?

[00:19:31] – Steve
In a bud, yeah.

[00:19:32] – Frankie
Why do you nip it in a bud?

[00:19:33] – Steve
Before it blooms.

[00:19:35] – Frankie
Oh, nice.

[00:19:39] – Steve
Okay, we’re done. We would love your thoughts on this, and by the sounds of it, contractual clauses, then simply get in touch with Frankie whenever she’s posted this, most commonly in the Doing It For The Kids community itself.