[00:00:57] – Frankie
Hello. You’re listening to the Doing It For The Kids podcast, where we swear a bit too much and talk a bit too fast about freelance life with kids in the mix. I’m Frankie and this is Steve.

[00:01:07] – Steve
Yes. Hello! Each week we take a question from the Doing It For The Kids community. Do our best to answer it, but we also take your comments as well, which we love to get. Which means we start each episode with last week’s question. Last week’s question was-,

[00:01:21] – Frankie
How to avoid friction with your other half when you’re working lots of evenings and weekends.

[00:01:24] – Steve
Oh, God, yeah.

[00:01:25] – Frankie
It was a good one!

[00:01:27] – Steve
Rebecca Lismer got in touch.

She says,

“Communication is everything. We start messages with KIWI or KIHI. KIWI: keep important wife informed. KIHI: keep important husband informed.”

I like that, though it does suggest that you have multiple wives and husbands.

[00:01:47] – Frankie
Important and not important!

[00:01:49] – Steve
Rebecca continues,

“We start messages with KIWI or KIHI that include work commitments or plans, going climbing, appointments, meetings, as well as adding stuff to the joint calendar. We message each other from upstairs, downstairs, his garden office, because then it is in writing and it isn’t drowned out by a small human, screaming toddler repeating himself for the 40th time/dog barking at invisible postmen.”

[00:02:12] – Frankie
Polly Tree says,

“I was in this place about 18 months ago. I had an extended pity party and then I pulled myself together and organised the shit out of it. This included deciding how many hours I needed to work each week and being clear with my family that if I couldn’t get that during the day, I would need to work at night. Having one night a week where my partner is in charge and I can do work. So no matter who is sick or off school or on holiday or whatever, I always have the whole evening to get stuff done.

Getting really good at managing my clients expectations, being clear when I can and can’t take calls, factoring in time for the unexpected when delivering a project, not feeling guilty that I work reduced hours. (I’m raising a human at the same time, for f**k’s sake!!) Apart from one night a week switching off from when it’s family time, and not feeling guilty about that either. Having ad hoc childcare on hand to help if I have a busy week, or an important call saying no to work that I couldn’t deliver, and passing on to other freelancers and being realistic about what I can achieve professionally whilst my child is still young.

I have a monthly crisis about it, but it’s short lived.”

[00:03:11] – Steve
Kathy Wassell says,

“It’s depressing how much of a common problem this is. I am working on a time machine, but in the absence of one — cold, hard facts tend to work for me. e.g. You work x hours. The kids are with me x hours. I have to do X, X and X. I need to do X hours of work to earn Y. There is no time in the week to do this other than X, Y and Z. SUCK IT UP.”

I presume the suck it up was aimed at-,

[00:03:40] – Frankie
Their other half? Yeah.

And Amy Rutter says,

“Thank you so much for this episode. I’ve been feeling totally stressed and overwhelmed with the full-time mum and freelancing juggle and wanted time to myself, but I’m not great at communicating that to my other half. We listen to the podcast together.”

I love this, by the way. So good.

Amy continues,

“We listen to the podcast together and Frankie essentially did it for me. As a result of you mentioning your kid-free Saturday mornings, we’re now sorting a morning this week for me to be by myself. Not yet a regular thing, as it’s often difficult to know which days I need to work, but it’s a start and it’ll be the first I’ve had since my son was born. I’m in the process of booking in a massage and researching nearby coffee shops! Bloody bliss.”

[00:04:22] – Steve
Oh, yay. I’m intrigued. Did Amy listen to that first and then pretend she hadn’t, and then sit down with her other half and say, “Oh, should we listen to this? I don’t know what it is…”

[00:04:35] – Frankie
Yeah, because it’s risky otherwise, isn’t it? Just getting you both to sit down to listen to it based on the title of the episode alone. I mean… risky!!

[00:04:42] – Steve
Yeah.

[00:04:43] – Frankie
You don’t know what was said. That could backfire.

[00:04:45] – Steve
If nothing else ever good comes of this podcast, you know there’s a high chance that’ll happen. That one thing alone would have justified everything!

[00:04:53] – Frankie
Amy’s had a massage, so it’s all good.

[00:06:50] – Steve
Okay, this week’s question comes from… Oh, it’s anonymous.

They say,

“From Anonymous. Not only because some of my current and potential clients may listen to the podcast, but also because I want you to have another opportunity to conjure up a random detective name.”

Right, I feel like we should explain because if you’re only just starting listening at this point, the random detective thing is because very early on, we decided that saying ‘anonymous’ is just a bit boring. It’s more fun if you make up a name, but if you don’t make up a name, we will make up a name for you.

[00:07:19] – Frankie
And we’ve fallen into the habit of detective names from some fantasy website.

[00:07:24] – Steve
Yeah, so, fantasy name generator. Here we go…

[00:07:27] – Frankie
Have they got a clicker at the bottom that tells you how many hits they get?

[00:07:31] – Steve
You might want to approach them for sponsorship.

[00:07:33] – Frankie
Yeah. Good shout.

[00:07:35] – Steve
Detective Kerry Robinson? Blake Cox? Tyler Freeman? Avery Walker? Harper MacCleod?

[00:07:44.010] – Frankie
Harper MacCleod. Done.

[00:07:45] – Steve
Harper MacCleod says,

“Can we have the’ turning down work’ conversation? I’ve reached a stage where I can, to some extent, pick and choose my work. However, I’m a people pleaser and still find it difficult to say no. For argument’s sake. Let’s just say my job involves drawing things. But I’m happy to be a detective if you insist. Even when you’re desperate for work. Let’s face it, there are projects that are more trouble than they’re worth!”

[00:08:13] – Frankie
Amen.

[00:08:14] – Steve
Harper MacCleod continues,

“Even worse, some projects could end up costing you money or be professionally disastrous. I’ll give you a recent scenario. I was speaking to a potential client on that-,”

I feel like this should be… This is so well written, but it feels like Detective MacCleod needs to say it?

*Steve puts on american ‘detective’ accent and continues*

Harper MacCleod continues,

“I’ll give you a recent scenario. I was working late, speaking to a potential client on the phone, and all these red flags were popping up. The project was ultra boring and would eat into my capacity for interesting projects. The client was awkward, querying the relevance of my questions. Outside, I could hear a bus car underneath a street lamp. Something wasn’t right by the laundry…”

Sorry, back to their letter.

“I was trying to suggest that another professional would be better suited to their project. Then they dropped the bombshell.”

Extreme close up.

“But you’re doing work for my friend, aren’t you? As it turns out, yes, I am doing work for their friend. But their friend is lovely, and their project is really interesting. So here’s the question.”

[00:09:26] – Frankie
Back to Steve. Back to Steve.

[00:09:29] – Steve
*Steve returns to his normal voice*.

Detective MacCleod says,

“When you get an inquiry and you just get a bad feeling about the work or for client, how do you turn down the project without damaging your reputation? I’m loathed to do things that some industries appear to do. For example, give a silly big quote to scare them off. ‘Don’t bother speaking to this detective, they’re far too expensive’. Ghost them, i.e. ‘Don’t bother contacting this detective, they never got back to me’. Do you see what they’re doing here? By the way, I’m now saying the things which that client might say to other people.”

[00:10:01] – Frankie
Indeed, reputation management.

[00:10:04] – Steve
She continues,

“Tell them you’re too busy. And then the client will say, ‘Don’t bother contacting this detective. They’re far too busy’.

What you really want is — ‘You should give this detective a call. They were lovely on the phone and made some great suggestions, but ultimately couldn’t help me’. They may be able to help you.

Frankie. Steve, your thoughts and potty mouth ramblings would be much appreciated.

Yours, Detective Harper MacCleod.”

[00:10:30] – Frankie
I don’t want to be negative, but are we asking for the world on a stick here? What do you think, Steve? Just because they’ve covered all the things that I would tell them to do! Which is true, in that, then you’re giving a message to that person which might be relayed to other people being too expensive, being too busy. How do you tell them you don’t want to work with them without that being a negative thing? How do you spin it into a positive? That’s what we’re asking here, isn’t it?

[00:10:58] – Steve
I feel like the best of the options which they have given is the one about saying you’re too busy. Except that the phrase ‘too busy’ isn’t the phrase that we should be using. It’s the fact that you’re already booked up until this point, or you already have commitments.

[00:11:17] – Frankie
That can massively backfire because they might turn around and say, “Oh, don’t worry, we’ll push it back six months. I’ll call you in March!”

[00:11:23] – Steve
I was going to say that what I would do as part of the conversation where you’re having the red flags is say, “What’s your time frame on this? Is there a deadline? Is there something you’re working towards?” Get a feel of that and then you can feed that into your answer. Look, “I am tied up until the year 2025”.

[00:11:42] – Frankie
Yeah, exactly!

[00:11:44] – Steve
Or, “Look, I only like to take on projects where I know I’m going to be a perfect fit for it and I don’t feel like this is going to be a great fit for me. I want you to get the best thing that you can have.”

[00:11:56] – Frankie
Suddenly feels like dating, doesn’t it? You turn down the date.

[00:11:59] – Steve
But it’s like you’re turning that onto the positive for them. “I don’t feel like I’m the right person for this project.” The trouble here is that ordinarily, we’d be saying, why don’t you refer them on to somebody else? But presumably, you don’t want to do that because they’re a red flag client who you don’t think are good.

[00:12:14] – Frankie
Yeah, because my go to if I’m genuinely not the right fit for somebody because I don’t have the right skills or I’m genuinely too busy, I’ll have people that I genuinely want to recommend and I think would do a great job. But I would never send who I fear to be a difficult client to essentially one of my mates who has similar skills to me, because that politically isn’t a great move!

Slight side note: but whatever recommendation I make, I always try and check with that person first.

[00:12:44] – Steve
By the way, your webcam has now slipped so much that all I can see is your ceiling fan.

[00:12:51] – Frankie
There we go.

[00:12:52] – Steve
Oh, there you are.

[00:12:54] – Frankie
Hi.

[00:12:57] – Steve
Another thing they said was “Give a silly big quote to scare them off”. No, I think, like you-, you shouldn’t do that because you’re right, they might just say to other people, “Oh, they’re way too expensive”.

[00:13:09] – Frankie
But is it such a bad thing if that particular client thinks you’re too expensive?

So when I first started out, my rate was insanely low and I would do work for pretty much anybody, and I did some work for some really difficult people who then — because I did a good job for no money — referred me to all their mates. And then suddenly I had emails from loads of people who I didn’t want to work with at a rate I wasn’t happy being paid.

So, is it such a bad thing to alienate that client through price if it means they won’t then go on to recommend you? You want to work with people that, yes, will recommend you and you have a good fit. But you also want people that are in the right sorts of networks, that is the type of work that you want to be doing and the type of people you want to continue working with. By using price as a deterrent, that can actually be a good way to do that? I know we’re undermining the question, aren’t we?

[00:14:06] – Steve
Oh, it’s so hard because equally, this person, this imaginary client, we’re thinking that they’re going to give that much of a shit about you that they’re going to not refer? Do you want their referral?

[00:14:22] – Frankie
Exactly. That’s kind of what I’m saying.

Yeah, but but but, it’s a good point! It’s a good point because this Detective MacCleod says they’re a people pleaser, right? So this is tied into the fact that they don’t want to come across as a dick ultimately, because they’re a people pleaser. They want everyone to like them. Whatever they’re being asked to do, they want to come away from that positively.

Which — for the record, hands up! — I can relate. But as you say, if this client is genuinely throwing all the red flags at you… I mean, I’m not giving you an excuse to be a knob. I’m just saying, yeah — what you just said. Is it so bad that they won’t go on to refer you?

[00:15:05] – Steve
I don’t think there’s perhaps anything wrong with most of these options apart from ghosting them.

[00:15:10] – Frankie
Yes.

[00:15:11] – Steve
It’s just how you frame them and say them so that you’re in control of them, so that you still leave that person with a good feeling about you. So that you still sound like you care about their project, so that you’re still treating them with respect. So that they still go away feeling positive about their experience of you. And then that means they’re not going to badmouth you and they might refer you, but it’s more the badmouthing that we’re worried about, right? And they’re not going to do that because you’ve treated them with respect and you’ve left them feeling good.

[00:15:46] – Frankie
I think there’s a bit of a freelance affliction around saying no, generally. The feast or famine thing. Take all the jobs, do all the jobs, never say no. There’s that kind of like… you never know when everything’s going to dry up mentality? But there’s also… I don’t know if it’s the word ‘freelancer’ or what. But I think a lot of us have this feeling that we’re there to ‘serve’ people. And it’s quite a one-way thing where we should say yes and “whatever you want, sir” and there is that kind of approach to it.

But actually, that’s not the case at all. And I don’t think you should be afraid of just saying… Like, do you need an excuse? Is what I mean. Particularly if you’re doing illustration, which is a really stylised, personal thing. And they touch on the fact that they’re clearly in demand and have good clients and whatever. If somebody approaches you with that kind of project. If you’re that kind of freelancer. Are they expecting you to just say yes to everything? I don’t know. What’s my point? My point is-,

[00:16:49] – Steve
What’s your point? What’s your point?

[00:16:52] – Frankie
My point is-,

[00:16:53] – Steve
Here comes the point. Here comes the point.

[00:16:58] – Frankie
Shush, you. No, I’ve lost it now…

[00:17:01] – Steve
There went the point. Goodbye the point!

[00:17:04] – Frankie
Yeah. My point is it’s a two way process and they have the right to turn around and say they don’t want to work with you anymore as much as you have the right to turn around and say, I don’t want to take this job on. The default isn’t they expect you to say yes and you have to talk your way out of that. It’s up to you — particularly in an artistic, creative job — whether you decide to take that commission on or not. I’m not saying that makes it easier to have that conversation, but I think you need to flick a switch sometimes in your brain. The automatic response doesn’t have to be, “yes, of course”.

[00:17:34] – Steve
It’s all about how that client departs your conversation feeling. How do they feel when they leave you? As long as you’ve still been professional and pleasant and actually — maybe even tried to be helpful and seemed to give a damn about their project (because everybody wants to feel good about their business) — then that is the feeling that is going to linger with them when it comes to potentially talking about Harper McLeod in the future.

Well, I tell you what, have you had this experience? Let us know your thoughts.

[00:18:08] – Frankie
Yeah, we need help!